High Court to decide in row of Berwick taxi licences

September 18th, 2008 • Related • Filed Under
Published Date: 17 September 2008

BERWICK Borough Council would have to “rewrite an Act of Parliament” if it wanted to stop hundreds of taxis licensed in the town from swarming all over the north east, a top judge heard this week.
A row over taxi licensing between Berwick and Newcastle City Council moved to the High Court in London this week, with the Tyne authority claiming the border town’s stance on taxi licensing is causing havoc.
The court heard that Berwick now boasts a staggering total of 672 licensed hackney carriages - more than one for every 40 residents - only a fraction of which are ever seen on the town’s streets.Instead, most are making their way south to carry out “minicab” work in Newcastle and other north east towns, although some Berwick taxis have even been seen as far away as Surrey.
Newcastle says enough is enough and has taken Berwick to the High Court in a bid to put a stop to what it says is the town’s “excessive and unlimited” issuing of hackney carriage licences.
However, Charles Holland, for Berwick, said the town’s hands were “effectively tied” and it has no legal power to insist that locally licensed cabs actually operate within the Berwick area.
He said the problem had arisen due to a disparity between the fees and conditions imposed by Berwick and Newcastle on taxi licence applicants, who are fully entitled to “shop around” for the most favourable regime.
Newcastle, unlike Berwick, limits the numbers of hackney carriage licences it issues, with the result that there is a long waiting list in the city and scarce licences can change hands for substantial sums, Mr Holland told Judge Christopher Symons QC.
Arguing that a would-be cabbie can apply for a licence “anywhere he wants,” the barrister said it was an entirely lawful activity for Berwick cabs to take private hire bookings in Newcastle - or anywhere else in the country.
Newcastle, added Mr Holland, was effectively demanding that Berwick rewrite an Act of Parliament by restricting taxi licences only to those who actually operate in the town.
He added that, if Berwick gave in to Newcastle’s demands and imposed tougher restrictions on taxi licensing, cabbies would inevitably shop around again and “look to the next cheapest authority” to make their applications.
But he accepted that Berwick faced difficulties in regulating and managing such a large taxi fleet, particular when most of the vehicles operate so far outside its area and drivers have no connection with the town.
Mr Holland told the judge: “We don’t for one moment say that the current system is ideal, but it is the current system and this use of a hackney carriage is lawful.”
Mr John McGuinness QC, for Newcastle, told the court that the addresses of Berwick-licensed taxi proprietors take in most of the north-east’s population centres - including Durham, Sunderland, Middlesbrough and Hartlepool - but some live as far afield as the West Midlands, Wales, Liverpool and even Surrey.
Newcastle wrote to Berwick in May last year, demanding a change in its stance on taxi licensing, but Berwick refused.
Mr McGuinness said most taxi licence applicants in Berwick “have not the slightest intention” of plying for hire in the town and accused the borough council of expressly thwarting Parliament’s intention that hackney carriage services should be local in nature and serve local populations.
Newcastle City Council is asking Judge Symons to rule Berwick’s stance unlawful and to declare that the town must only issue licences to cab proprietors if satisfied their vehicles will be used within the Berwick area.
The High Court hearing continues and, given the importance of the case, Judge Symons is expected to reserve his decision until a later date.

Original source: http://www.berwick-advertiser.co.uk/news/High-Court-to-decide-in.4501134.jp

There Are 53 Responses So Far. »

  1. Comment by Wavatar Captain Cab on 18 September 2008:

    Of course if Berwick and all councils limited numbers of taxis this kind of thing wouldnt happen :)

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  2. Comment by Wavatar john dodds on 19 September 2008:

    With respect,even if all councils limited numbers,someone would find a way around it.
    As for Berwick,the conservative estimate of 672,is probably just a guess,as I earlier in the week had a phone call from the press asking me how many hacks were licensed by Newcastle council,seemingly someone at the council either didnt know(seems odd when they are the ones who issue the bloody things) or couldn`t be bothered to find out.
    Anyway,as I told the gentleman,I`m only 1 driver,not the local LA rep.but theres about 782 plates issued,thats in the Newcastle area,so can Berwick be relied upon to have an accurate figure,especially when the rule of `significant unmet demand` which most go by has no place in their non existant policy…..Berwicks words NOT mine.
    In other words,one could be sceptical and say that Berwick only operates this open ended idea,as they are making a huge gain out of an out of control policy of throwing plates around faster than the Titanic could sink.
    After all,the number of plates already issued would nearly be enough to pave Berwick town centre over with.
    Not knowing the exact price of their plates,but say £200 a year at 672 times……nice little earner….eh Guv

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  3. Comment by Wavatar yt on 19 September 2008:

    Even if the Judge does rule in favour of Newcastle council,you will not see the immediate disappearance of all the foreign Hacks.
    Lots of legal issues concerning things like restriction of trade etc,will be raised.
    Also, for the benefit of Mr Shanks,my real name is Mike Brown.

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  4. Comment by Wavatar Northtynehack on 19 September 2008:

    An unmet demand Survey is underway in North Tyneside at the moment.Last night Thursday 18.09.08 the person surveying in Tynemouth ‘Fell Asleep’ in his car!I waited an hour and ten minutes for a fare and even I managed to stay awake.

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  5. Comment by Wavatar Stamper on 24 September 2008:

    Please, before anybody gets too carried away with comments about the High Court case “Newcastle v Berwick” the judgement has yet to come! - but the Lord Judge Symons did comment that the current 598 activities aren’t acceptable! which I would hope we all agree is not in the interest of the trade?

    As for our friend Mr Button, - who is intent on making a national problem, then resolving it by his own national cab Act,(All Hacks) writen by himself - look out were on to you!

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  6. Comment by Wavatar Captain Cab on 24 September 2008:

    so long as the HC trade are intent on falling asleep…these things are going to happen.

    CC

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  7. Comment by Wavatar Stephen (FKA Central Enth.) on 25 September 2008:

    Who is Mr Button?

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  8. Comment by Wavatar admin on 25 September 2008:

    Good Grief! Stephen doesn’t know something.
    James T.H. Button is the author of ‘Taxis: Licensing Law and Practice’ & ‘Button on Taxis’. Some of his interpretations are a clue to why the Taxi trade is in a mess. Unfortunately his publications are revered like the bible by Taxi & Private Hire Enforcement officers.Hence they are sometimes referred to as ‘Buttonites’ If you want a copy it’s about 65 quid and usually out of stock!

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  9. Comment by Wavatar Stephen (FKA Central Enth.) on 25 September 2008:

    Why would I read a book on Taxi Law?, How many drivers have or want to?, you will expect me to have completed the N.ot V.ery Q.ualified QUALIFICATION next (NVQ).
    A medical, test, and CRB is enough for this cr*p!..more than enough!
    A Book on what goes on in North Tyneside only would be good reading, WH Smith would sell out!….a second Berwick edition would be even better.

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  10. Comment by Wavatar Stamper on 25 September 2008:

    I’ve Advised some L.A’s.(and they know who they are!) to open a window and throw Mr Button’s book as far away as they can, to save them and us any more future problems.

    Stroll on Sir Maddox & his elite team S46 1(e)for the good of the trade.

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  11. Comment by Wavatar Stephen (FKA Central Enth.) on 28 September 2008:

    Poor Football team and poor Taxis!!!!!!!!!!!
    I would like to refer to a article in this weeks Sunday Sun Newspaper 28/09/08.
    Joe Kinnear (New Manager of Newcastle) was pictured on page 5 of the Sunday Sun in a Taxi?????????????, Guess what it was’nt a Newcastle, North Tyneside or Gateshead it was non other than a Bandit wagon, those who have read the Article can clearly see the infamous Top sign with the new Toon Manager in the Taxi??????.
    What does that say about the North East?….We don’t have any local Licensed Taxis???….Lets hope that he got to St.James park and did’nt end up elsewhere!
    Joe Kinnear will be wondering if he got the Toon job or the Berwick Rangers job!, but a Bandit will have probably dropped him off at Hillheads Park (Whitley Bay FC).
    Regards
    Central Enthusiast!

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  12. Comment by Wavatar ian shanks on 28 September 2008:

    can i just ask without trying to be funny to anyone !!

    if Newcastle are to win the case hands down, what to you believe has been won ?

    because its my belief that the bandits you refer to will still be there, but simply in another uniform ! the problem many of you seem to have is lack of enforcement towards the many drivers who seem to believe they are simply free lance.

    so regardless of what plate they wear the problem still exists why is this all about Berwick as i feel its a red herring ?

    i honestly don’t want a slagging over this question, as i know many of you are well wound up about this matter but if you can think for a minute, will resolving the Berwick issue really resolve the problem the hackney trade have which i believe is rouge drivers ?

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  13. Comment by Wavatar admin on 28 September 2008:

    Ian, From the viewpoint of a Legitimate Hack,everyone knows that if the Berwick plates go the drivers remain,in a private hire vehicle perhaps, The crux of the matter for me is that for years we have been trying to educate the public,for their own safety, The difference between a Hackney carriage which can be hailed in the street & a Private Hire which can not. With the advent of Berwick Hackney carriages roaming the streets a punter may let a Private Hire pass only to flag a Berwick plated car, not knowing that they are still uninsured if that driver has an accident. You,as a responsible and much respected operator must see that. YES?

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  14. Comment by Wavatar Captain Cab on 28 September 2008:

    How will Newcastle win?

    Is someone going to re-write section 16 of the 1985 transport act?

    The case is a lose / lose one from all perspectives.

    If the plates are handed back to Berwick / Derwentside / Eden / A little known island in the pacific who think they can make a few quid in issuing licenses * (delete as appropriate) the drivers will still remain.

    What needs learned and addressed is the ‘profit’ some LA’s are making from licensing, this money should go towards keeping drivers safe or reduced fee’s. The law is simple, licensing is not a revenue raising exercise for the LA.

    It all boils down to effective enforcement…..and that is a two-way street, be it a quiet Tuesday evening or a busy Saturday where some in the HC trade are quite prepared to turn a ‘blind-eye’.

    The situation within the North East has been on going for many years, years before Berwick plates went south. Seems to me, you all know that, but nobody is actually saying it.

    CC

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  15. Comment by Wavatar ian shanks on 28 September 2008:

    while i see your argument and do go along with it in part !

    my opinion goes back to councils who in Newcastle insist on top signs on private hire, this in itself suggests what to a customer ? when a North Tyneside car has none how is the public supposed to understand all the difference between various councils rules and regulations on how they want their private hire to look ? does a top sign suggest a car is for hire as you would suggest with a Berwick Bandit Car?? if so then a Newcastle Private hire cars could suggest they are for Hire. or should the public know and understand the difference in size and shape of these top signs ??

    there needs to be consistency between councils policies on vehicles

    do the public understand when hacks are returning to Newcastle from Gateshead or North Tyneside why they refuse to stop for them ? to them a taxi is a taxi

    so to educate the public that this vehicle can do that and that vehicle can only be used like this needs some sort of radical change and while councils make their own rules and regulations which are often miles apart from one another we have this problem

    this in my view is the root of much confusion !! can you yourself tell me why we can have a Ford Galaxy in Newcastle but in North Tyneside we must take a seat out ?

    so my opinion was that this Berwick situation could have been used as a stick to START a revue of what our two trades need to get some sort standardisation of rules for TAXIS and private hires.

    we are fighting this, as most drivers want this dealt with because of their short term issues, but i see these as long term issues that need addressing for the progress and development of our trades as a public transport system ! will these present laws allow us to benefit and grow with the technologies that are out there and are yet to come in the future ! i suspect not as we are being held back by interpretations of laws.

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  16. Comment by Wavatar JD on 28 September 2008:

    Stephen (FKA Central Enth.) - Worst of it he was actually flimped as it says that NUFC did not send some one to pick him up so he hailed a cab, low and behold A LINE Berwick Bandit! Does this not show how blatant they are, this guy knew he was being filmed and photographed and STILL took the job. Enforcement is a complete joke. I bet no questions are raised with A LINE!

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  17. Comment by Wavatar Stephen (FKA Central Enth.) on 28 September 2008:

    On the Berwick issue, I have become concerned that their is still a number of Berwick wagons doing School runs, as we all know Berwick will license anyone from any planet or simply anything, so never mind the Drunken folk of Whitley and Newcastle, what about innocent Children with disabilities or recovering from a Accident being picked up by these idiots???, Why do NC or NT Council allow these folk to tender for School runs???, their is good money in this, we can’t blame operators for this can we?
    The School runs are often overlooked because we are all bickering about what has gone on in South Parade on a Saturday night!!!
    Someone has to stop Bandits from doing School runs unless they have a proper Badge!
    Central Enthusiast…..and proud of it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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  18. Comment by Wavatar admin on 28 September 2008:

    To Ian Shanks: I couldn’t agree with you more but can’t you see that the Berwick case has the potential to be a starting point. My point is that if Berwick wins the starting point is lost and chaos will ensue, as all the points you mentioned will be further down the pile thus making any kind of coherent Taxi/Private Hire policy impossible to attain. If Berwick wins our Trade (yours & mine)will become even more chaotic as I know for a fact there are a lot of drivers just waiting for the outcome, and if it goes their way they will be putting their applications into Berwick like a shot. So, we will then have a three tier system, Councils can’t enforce two tiers what will they do with three? They will raise everybody else’s fees. i.e. yours and mine, to make up for the shortfall that went off to Berwick. You have the clout to do more to educate Councils and bring about Radical changes but you chose to aggravate the situation with your out of town hacks. You get the same rent whether they are NTPH or Berwick Hack. If you truly believe that the ‘Trades’ need to be helped by ‘radical’ changes in licensing etc.Then it would have been a good gesture of goodwill to refuse anyone with an out of town plate working from your office. Like I said you get the rent whatever they drive. So I find your comments a little insincere to say the least.
    Why did we ever need a court case? Why wouldn’t every office proprietor back his workforce and say no! To out of town plates? What’s in it for whom? And if it is all about the cost of a licence, when you have drivers coming here saying they make £900 a week! Are they really saying they got a Berwick plate to save £100 a year?
    Call me cynical but I think they got them to look more like a Taxi and they would have done it even if a Berwick Licence was twice the price of a Newcastle or North Tyneside Hack licence.

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  19. Comment by Wavatar JD on 28 September 2008:

    I.S. - do the berwick drivers notify that they are working in another area and pay the load on the premium? i doubt it.

    As I was told several months ago to try Ins company X as a guy insuring his Berwick plated vehicle with No NCB, first Badge and no previous taxi experience had his insurance for less than £800 !!!

    Now I have a newcastle Hack, 7 yrs NCB, no accidents etc etc and I am paying £1100.00 and was offered a TPFT quote for £900.

    Now do you check on your berwick drivers policys that they have correctly notified there insurance company that there main are of work is NT? As when I told this lad that he has a duty to disclose this to his insurance company, the reply was, they no i live down here so i will be working down here. I would be very interested to see what his quote would have been had he done that.

    Also -= Stephen (FKA Central Enth - thats whay even if the judge rules in newcastles favour (which I hope) he will haveto give till next summer as a deadline, as if its immediate ruling chaos will ensure accross the country with regards to school runs.

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  20. Comment by Wavatar Captain Cab on 28 September 2008:

    “can you yourself tell me why we can have a Ford Galaxy in Newcastle but in North Tyneside we must take a seat out ?”

    Locals are best placed to decide….perhaps Newcastle are wrong on the galaxy….perhaps a person needs to be easily able to get into and out of the vehicle?

    Greater uniformity may well suit the public, but it may lead to a situation where there is no discernable difference between area to area, thus leading to or creating even more problems.

    I needn’t point out if a particular PH company wishes for a policy where all its PH cars are of a certain colour, this could be done, within reason, easily within a matter of months….with little or no direction from any local authority. I think the expression is ‘corporate colour’ or something similar.

    Regarding top signs….PH, in my opinion, shouldn’t have them in any area…..but especially those that allow saloons as HC’s. As you state, it creates confusion.

    I must admit to being pleasantly pleased by your attitude though, you’ve had a fair bit of stick on this website, yet you remain quite professional, perhaps your detractors should take note.

    I tend to disagree with admin that confusion will ensue if Berwick ‘win’. Because I think you’ll see more pro-active enforcement than you’ve ever seen before.

    regards

    CC

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  21. Comment by Wavatar admin on 28 September 2008:

    “I tend to disagree with admin that confusion will ensue….”

    I hope you are right Captain Cab. We shall see, But we have a licensing section here that will write letters all week long about ‘failure to display door decals or fare tables’yet in the last three months have failed to act on over 100 photographs of Private Hire vehicles sitting on Hackney Carriage Ranks, sometimes even whilst Hacks are on the Rank. However I will wait and see what the outcome of this case is and sit with bated breath whilst Mr.Newton(NT Enforcement)dons his ‘Pro Active Suit’

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  22. Comment by Wavatar Captain Cab on 28 September 2008:

    Quote JD;

    “I.S. - do the berwick drivers notify that they are working in another area and pay the load on the premium? i doubt it.”

    Do they have to? I don’t notify my LA when I have a fare from another area.

    Admin..

    I get the feeling if they lose more PH they are going to have to do something….if you have no PH and HC’s there’s not much point in an enforcement job from the LA is there?

    regards

    CC

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  23. Comment by Wavatar SC on 29 September 2008:

    J.D why would you need to tell the insurance company what area you maybe work in? after all your insurance covers you to drive any where in the uk?

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  24. Comment by Wavatar tc on 29 September 2008:

    The main reason, the Berwick licenses appeared on the streets wasn’t because of top signs privacy glass or any other petty thing that the N/Tyneside council is living in the past with, it was so DRIVERS WHO COULDNT FOR ONE REASON OR ANOTHER GET A DRIVERS HC/BADGE OR P/V BADGE to work here, could work are street & offices, it would be Very interesting to hear why suddenly MR Wilson decided that was the way forward for the pathetic Berwick council if this court case is won by Newcastle city council, & there are costs towards the Berwick council I hope Mr Wilson has to explain to the hierarchy in the council along with the tax paying public to exactly why ?

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  25. Comment by Wavatar ian shanks on 29 September 2008:

    i believe if Berwick were to win we would see local Authorities in number attacking the government in an attempt to resolve, If Newcastle are to win i simply see further issues and that in time we will see another court case some time in the future until someone realizes this needs sorting.

    but if i can go back to admins reply earlier. maybe we need the chaos to start to get the long term problems resolved ? We have a one tier system for PSV controlled by VOSA so why not something similar for TAXIS and PH as councils do “jack shit” with enforcement ! lets also not get rapped up in why people have gone to Berwick as people keep mentioning cost !! for me and many others if you can remember it was over the obstructiveness of councils to allow a EU driver to others it was the restrictiveness to allow certain vehicles etc etc so loose the cost argument please ! as i could not get THE RENTS as i could not grow my business with NORTH TYNESIDE governing me remember the cross border case when i had 75 Newcastle private hires working with me ! I predominantly operate in Newcastle and the public were covered by all legally and tested drivers but councils did not want it to happen therefore I was and still am restricted to grow even further.

    i believe i do educate the public by lifting the profile of the industry in whole not JUST for ourselves by high profile advertising on TV and radio !! this trying to pull the public’s perceptions of the trade being a porta cabin in a pub car park or what they see on coronation street !!

    so the reason for out of town hacks again bring councils and there obstructiveness and awkwardness into it and i after years of being reluctant to do it felt i had little option as sitting with committees who control us but know nothing about us infuriated me.

    so admin i have wrote this quickly and hope it reads OK but ii think i do educate more than most and my reasons for out of town hacks have been listed many times before and its not about cutting costs for me anyway !! thanks

    captain cab as you and myself have identified confusion has been set by the councils not necessary the trade !! and if you can remember far enough back blue line did have a colour policy ! you could not start with us unless your car was blue !! but for commercial reasons and because car dealers loaded the price of blue cars we abandoned that and simply it was more important to be able to supply a car than no car !!

    and YES one possible out come maybe the force for councils to get of their arses and do enforcement if Berwick were to win !! OH i do hope so as it would be nice to see them work rather than sit and just bully

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  26. Comment by Wavatar Stephen (FKA Central Enth.) on 29 September 2008:

    Dear All!
    Some humour at last!
    Mr Shanks wrote;
    “i believe i do educate the public by lifting the profile of the industry in whole not just ourselves by high profile advertising on TV and radio!! this trying to pull the publics perceptions of the trade being a porta cabin in a pub car park or what they see on coronation street”
    Quote!
    “or what they see on coronation street”, do you see Steve McDonald (Regular Coronation Street Character) driving a Bandit mobile?, using his SatNav to get to the Rovers or Roy’s cafe???, NO, NO my friend!, Do you see Dev the Asian shop keeper on the street renting a bog standard Mondeo off Steve for £250 PER WEEK???
    If you have a high tech Call centre with the latest technology in the Cobalt, sending a car to a Customer driven by a driver licensed 70 miles away can’t be good for the image can it!
    Regards
    Central Enthusiast

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  27. Comment by Wavatar tc on 29 September 2008:

    I agree with you Ian on the council enforcement front, but the issue of why suddenly did Mr. Wilson in Berwick suddenly wake up in the morning & invite every one & any to license in Berwick or for others 70 mile down the road to benefit makes the general public wonder? as a hack proprietor I’m more than willing to go by the rules laid down & I agree there’s room for improvement, but either way sticking by the rules I believe I would benefit, but as what was said the rules are there to be interpreted by those who see fit to interpret them at the expense of the people who really matter, the sole operators and the P/h drivers & not the suppressers who just gain …

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  28. Comment by Wavatar BIG SILVER on 29 September 2008:

    CENTRAL ENTHUSIAST WOT A WALLY YOU ARE YOU HAVE KEPT THIS INFO TO YOURSELF ABOUT THE BERWICK LICENSE AND LET MANY MANY TRAVEL DOWN TO LONDON FOR WOT ??????? YOU COULD HAVE TOLD THEM STOP BERWICK BANDITS DOING SCHOOL RUNS YOU REALY ARE A MIND OF INFOMATION AND YOUR RITE CHUCK THE KIDS IN THE HACKS YOU COULD HAVE THE KIDS STINKING OF SMOKE JUST LIKE HACK DRIVERS AND THE HACK CARS IF THINGS GET ANY WORSE YOU COULD SELL THE KIDS A FEW FAGS

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  29. Comment by Wavatar ian shanks on 29 September 2008:

    tc

    lets not blame Mr Wilson,as the facts are that it was i that started this !! we originally got cars plated in Eden Vally( Penrith) and had many meetings with the council there before they were advised that they had no choice to issue licenses !, we then approached Berwick some time after, as the trip to Berwick was an easier one.

    So it would be wrong for me to let him take the blame, as i have said i made this move after much frustration with North Tyneside and could never have seen the overall out come of this maneuver. So for that in part i apologise.

    But i must ask, was it the PUSH or the PULL that has took this to the extent it has gone ?

    what i mean here is ! were drivers PULLED and enticed to Berwick ?

    or were they PUSHED by there existing authorities being awkward obstructive or simply unreasonable when approached which has caused drivers to leave and go to Berwick

    I would suggest that it was the PUSH ! as if drivers were happy with their local services prices and conditions they would have had no reason to have taken the option !

    so we are were we are in my humble belief because of those councils being unreasonable.

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  30. Comment by Wavatar Captain Cab on 30 September 2008:

    Now this is where we disagree Mr Shanks…(shame, we were getting on like the proverbial TX4 on fire too!)

    Mr Wilson, allegedly seems, on the face of it, not only to have bent over backwards, but to have reached a position only known, so I hear, to a few Colombian ladies of the night, with regards to being welcoming to strangers from another land.

    Indeed, it is rumoured, that the services of a rather decent Chiropractor maybe needed…..I needn’t embellish further I trust?

    Sufficed to state, if Berwick had in place even the most rudimentary topographic knowledge test, the situation wouldn’t have arisen.

    Jeez, for a sheep sh*gger, I must admit I am pretty good.

    regards

    CC

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  31. Comment by Wavatar SC on 30 September 2008:

    FAO Ian Shanks, Am with you on the national one tier system, have you thought about starting an e-Petition at http://www.number10.gov.uk/communicate/e-petitions for a national review on the matter?

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  32. Comment by Wavatar ian shanks on 30 September 2008:

    captain cab !

    i am sure our love will keep us together !!!

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  33. Comment by Wavatar Paul.W on 30 September 2008:

    Here’s a Private Hire Company that may object to a cry for a one tier system. http://www.addisonlee.com/services/minicabs/ where would Wheelchair accessible come in your one tier system? I would think a lot of W/C cars would disappear as drivers jumped ship for the cheaper option of a saloon car. If by some miracle this one tier utopia had a clause which said ‘50% of each fleet must be Wheelchair friendly’ then low and behold you would have a two tier system again! It couldn’t be 100% as there are people who either don’t want to hire a boxvan to take them home or are unable to get in one. It’s only P/H that seem to bleat on about one tier. They did this in ‘95 on north tyneside and we finished up with double the number of hacks.all the bleaters have gone back to Private Hire having sold the plates they protested and petitioned for. The world is in a bit of a financial mess at the moment due to this kind of thinking,just leave things be,always somebody tryin to put a spanner in the works,what for? When the day comes that everything is owned by big business and your life is controlled by some corporate computer,you will say “why didn’t I just drive my little taxi an keep my fat mouth shut”

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  34. Comment by Wavatar JD on 30 September 2008:

    sc - would you need to advise your insurance if you moved from darras hall to scotswood? Would your insurance premium go up vastly? Why? Your covered to drive anywhere in the uk? Yes but have an accident ond the Insurance find out then it would be more than likely that they would void your Insurance.

    Now, I know for a fact that it would be a lot cheaper to insure my vehicle as a berwick plated vehicle than a newcastle plated vehcile. Whys that? Because taxi insurance is based on the Licensing Authority for which the vehcile is registered. It is cheaper in berwick becasuse statiscly there is probably less taxi claims per year in that area. Now Newcastle taxi premiums are sky high, as there is more traffic and busyier streets to contend with.

    Now if we arrive at a situation where Mr. X has gone to berwick for his plate, getting cheaper insurance as he has not notified that he will be using it for a ph firm in newcastle and not berwick. he has anaccident, seriously hurts someone, it could be that if they find out they could if they so wish, and likely to, void the insurance.

    Now everyone knows the insurance SMALL PRINT on your application form means your duty of disclosure to them.

    Now I wonder how many of these ‘berwick Bandits’ are driving round without notifying the Insurance company of the area in which they are using the vehcile. my guess is zero, if they have a bit of paper in the house saying they are insured an saving £400 quid then why should they? Lets hope no one is hurt or killed by one to find out!

    another example sc would be a teenager puts alloy wheels on his car without telling his insurance company, have an accident they find out insurance voided!

    or A father insures the car for his son, dosent tell the insurance that the son is the main user, he has an accident going to work, they find out the son is the main user, yes they could and would void the insurance.

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  35. Comment by Wavatar Stephen (FKA Central Enth.) on 30 September 2008:

    JD
    Good point about the Insurance issue!, looking at Insurance, their is two Lads who have purchased two Torneo/Transits to do School runs in and to transport groups of weekend revellers to and from nightspots, these Guys work from “home” on the borders of Newcastle & North Tyneside!, these vehicles are Berwick Licensed!, so I wonder how valid their Insurance is?, as we know they can’t Hack down here legally, they don’t have a operators license, what they have done is called themselves a “Mini Coach” firm, I wonder how legal this is?, both vehicles have Meters in!, if you are Bus operator you don’t need a Meter do you?, you don’t see Kerrs and Priory coaches with Meters in do you.
    So I wonder how valid Insurance is on a Berwick licensed Hack operating in NT/NC without a office or operators license!!!!

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  36. Comment by Wavatar JD on 30 September 2008:

    its not just that, if they don’t notify there insurance company that their main place of work is NT and not Berwick (as they have a duty to when they take out the policy) they will be liable to having the policy nil and void in the event of an accident.

    IF the berwick bandits do notify the indurance, there insurance policy will have wording along the lines of ‘vehicle licensed by Berwick, but carries out majority of work in Newcastle NE1 area as a PH vehicle’

    And we all know that these guys are soooo hounest, and ligit that they ALL would have notified there Insurance, and paid the increased premium for working in Newcastle. Wouldnt they?

    It would be very interesting to hear from Mr. I.S. to see whether he and his drivers have made sure there fully covered in the event of RTA. After all they have a duty to do so, to the insurance and more importantly the public.

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  37. Comment by Wavatar JD on 30 September 2008:

    Even Berwick who are fully aware that none of these issued licences are working in Berwick have a duty to the public to ensure that the vehcile is covered in the event of a RTA. They should request not only a copy of the insurace certificate but a copy of the accompanying Policy Schedule stating that they have notified the Ins co that they are working outside of there LA on a perminant basis.

    I’d be willing to bet that a number would return to N/cle, NT and so on when thay relise there little insurance scam has come to an end and they are no longer saving £xxx a year. i mean do an online quote to see the difference for yourselves.

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  38. Comment by Wavatar Captain Cab on 30 September 2008:

    Dont insurance companies ask for the postcode?

    CC

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  39. Comment by Wavatar SC on 30 September 2008:

    As Blue Line are licensed to sell insurance i’d put money on that fact they are, further more dont you think if they were not covered it would have hit the press by now? Do you really think in the past few years a Berwick car has not had a crash in the Newcastle area? of course they have, at which point if the insurance was void they be in court for driving with no insurance.

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  40. Comment by Wavatar JD on 30 September 2008:

    just done a quick tester with an online Insurance company, full NCB same driver age, etc etc. only difference in the quotes was one was newcastle LA and one was Berwick LA.

    The best price we found with our automated system was £821.49 - Newcastle.

    The best price we found with our automated system was £672.13 - Berwick.

    Now thats £149.36 difference with one insurance company over the net. Are they saying that I have to pay more becasuse my plate is red and it attracts vehciles like a magnate compared to the green plates which repel other vehciles?

    rubbish the berwick quote would have shot up by at least £150.00 if they did the lawful thing and rang the insurance company to notify that they are not working in Berwick. Perhaps even more if they deemned that the Inbsured did not know his way round newcastle and was a hazzard to himself and others.

    I would be interested to see what a first timmer would be quoted in berwick and in newcastle, you know No NCB just got badgeg etc etc. Remeber a sheeps life is not worth the same as a humans!

    for anyone interested i used these http://www.choicequote.co.uk/taxi/taxi-insurance-uk.asp for a quote.

    suprisingly the first i tried did not have Newcastle on its list of LA (too high risk?) but had berwick. So I went with the above.

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  41. Comment by Wavatar JD on 30 September 2008:

    cc - your private car insurance is based firstly on the postcode of where the vehcile is kept overnight, and then the type of vehicle etc etc. This is because most private cars are parked from 8 pm till 8 am and are targets for thieves, damaged etc etc. hence the postcode gives the ricks to the vehcile.

    Taxi Insurance is based on the LA. Most taxis are on the road of an evenng, and Insurers are covering the risk of a crash with passangers (who like a whip lash claim). Hence Ncle is a higher group than berwick. More traffic, students running out in front, people driving round lost. Berwick is a small town with one high street and plenty of county roads.

    YOUR DUTY OF DISCLOSURE
    Your insurance is based upon the information provided to the insurance company and you must ensure that all such information is complete and accurate and that any facts that may influence the insurer’s decision to accept and pay a valid claim are disclosed. Failure to disclose material information may invalidate your insurance and could mean that all of part of a claim may not be paid.

    again I would like to know if I.S who thoroughly backs berwick’s case, has taken the time to ensure that his vehciles and more importantly passengers are covered LEGALLY in the event of a RTA?

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  42. Comment by Wavatar ian shanks on 30 September 2008:

    our insurance company is fully aware of how we operate and is happy with our cover

    thank you !!

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  43. Comment by Wavatar JD on 1 October 2008:

    so do you belive that the vast majority who are driving round have notified there Insurance accordingly? Or does it not matter?

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  44. Comment by Wavatar SC on 1 October 2008:

    JD. I have just had a phone call from choice quote after filling in their online quote form, I asked about not working in the area of which am licensed to which he said “as you comply with the regulations set out by your licensing authority, then you are covered to work any area”
    So in answer to your question,Are Berwick vehicles and more importantly passengers are covered LEGALLY in the event of a RTA?

    The answer is YES!

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  45. Comment by Wavatar Captain Cab on 1 October 2008:

    Thank you JD

    I am actually very religious and see insurance as a form of gambling, I try to avoid it :)

    CC

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  46. Comment by Wavatar JDredd on 1 October 2008:

    SC - so why then are they charging £150 more just to have a newcastle plate on the back as to a berwick plate.

    I mean if it makes no difference then why even bother to ask the LA?

    I would require written into the policy schedule to confirm I am covered, as the policy schedule is to be read in conjuction with the Ins certificate.

    i would also like to hear what an underwriters opinion of it would be, not a sales clerk sitting on the other end of the phone.

    why dont you phone them back sc and ask if it makes no difference to the policy, then why are they charging £150 MORE for a red plate as opposed to a green plate?

    and remember,,, there is companys out there that dont offer quotes for Newcastle, would they be happy to know that they have Berwick plates operating in Newcastle on there books?

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  47. Comment by Wavatar SC on 2 October 2008:

    JD tbh I dont care why they charge more for a Newcastle plate, I’d guess its down to the history of claims in the area Just like some Postcodes cost more.

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  48. Comment by Wavatar JDredd on 2 October 2008:

    “I’d guess its down to the history of claims in the area”

    thats correct. And your DUTY OF DISCLOSURE states that anything that may affect the insurance MUST be brought to there attention.

    Well done sc I’d knew you;d get it sooner rather than later.

    only final thought …

    … Beware ligit Hack’s of Berwick (plates 1-50) if your council win this case, and continue to throw licences to the far corners of the UK, the more Bverwick licences held means the more Insurance claims. As Insurers continue to log more claims against berwick plates, they will load on the premiums. Yes thats right you will end up paying through the roof and to work where? Berwick.

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  49. Comment by Wavatar walkergate mad man on 7 November 2008:

    ian(blue line taxis) you are full of shit and greed your a north tyneside office yet your cars sit in newcastle city centre.you have
    swamped the private hire trade you have invaded newcastle because you know there isnt enough work in wallsend for your hundreds of cars.

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  50. Comment by Wavatar jimmy d on 7 November 2008:

    on the subject of out of town hacks working other areas,and i promise chris i wont mention the B word,look at the amount of bandits,berwick,tynedale and derwentside plates working for other operators,ace,lansdowne and five star just to mention a few,and following on from the judgement,councils should ask and take into account of where applicant will be working,in or out of their licensed area,surley the councils could stipulate in an operators licence that they would have said licence suspended or revoked if they employed out of area hacks,sure somebody will chip in with some legal appendix saying it cant be done for some reason or other
    but from a common sense point of view surley it cant be that hard to insert into operators licence.
    as i mentioned in my last posting i have not been directly affected by this carry on,but thats not to say it wont happen to me,cos it will,as you all know the six district councils of northumberland will cease to exist from 31 march 2009,which is going to cause all sorts of problems for hack and ph trade in northumberland area,the last i heard from n.c.c was the ridiculous idea being mooted about splitting the county into 3 “communities” with heddon on the wall and ponteland being lumped into what is now tynedale,morpeth should have been in there too but they decided they didnt want to be in with us in hexham,they want to be with berwick and alnwick.now does that mean my n.c.c hack licence will let me pick up from a rank in hexham but not from a rank in morpeth which is still in the county that supplies my licence,in tynedale there is no cap on plates,but there is in 1 district,blyth i think,no doubt someone will correct me if im wrong,has any body who is going to be affected heard anything about what is going to happen in new la area,i have tried for several months phoning and e-mailing n.c.c but just come up against a brick wall of silence,anybody shed any light on this matter

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  51. Comment by Wavatar Joe King on 8 November 2008:

    jimmy d, you have to remember we are dealing with council workers, yes those a’holes who sit in their offices not having a clue as to what is going on in the real world. Lets just hope that the new Northumberland c c can come up with a sensible licensing policy, for both hackney and private hire.

    Something that always puzzles me, hacks and private hire cater for different needs/situations, so why do the hacks work for offices in the first place, thats what causes all of the confusion. If you want to work an office then get licensed as a private hire, if you want to work the streets and ranks, get plated as a hackney carriage, hmmmmm greed comes to mind.

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  52. Comment by Wavatar jimmy d on 8 November 2008:

    joe your talking crap its nowt to do with greed and eveything to do with need theres not enough rank work to make a decent living,and as for having a hack plate and working an office its because i can,obviously your from the old school of thought that you can be one or the other but not both and thats why with people with your attitude there will always be divisions in this trade and no harmony at all

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  53. Comment by Wavatar Hughie on 8 November 2008:

    Well mr joe king,or is that a made up name only jokeing.
    There is a credit crunch on as they say,and maybe the hacks cant keep up with your prices as they have to return empty to the ranks.

    Unfortunately a hack does not have the luxury of a follow on(no dead miles etc)

    So maybe that is why the hacks join offices etc.

    Maybe one plate one system might be a good idea for the future,but i am sure you will think different?

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