DFDS Revisited: A Modern Saga

October 9th, 2008 • Related • Filed Under

Certain Private Hire operators who now hold the franchise at the Scandinavian Ferry terminal in North Shields, seemingly not content with that have come here and made mention of the fact that The Central Station, Newcastle & Newcastle Airport are akin to what has transpired at the Ferry Terminal.

I must admit this conversation in the comments section of this ‘Fantastic’ website was to some extent initiated by me and I see nothing wrong with sensible debate, But I feel I must get my point across by way of a featured article on this subject.

My point is as follows: Whilst the P/H operator defends his position Re: said ferry terminal, he uses examples such as Central Station & Airport to make his point.

The Airport Taxi service is an all Hackney Carriage operation i.e. only Hackney Carriages may ply for hire there. In so doing they do not restrict other operators from coming to the airport & picking up their fares. Central station is the same, a Hackney Carriage Rank services the station and again no other Taxi or Private Hire is excluded from being able to pick up at the station.

Now when it comes to the Ferry terminal which is run by two large Private Hire operators, Hackney carriage proprietors are excluded from being able to pick up as the Rank was taken away. Thus there is now no choice for the ferry passengers but to take a private hire car from this operator,at the Airport they have a choice. Hack from the Rank or phone a P/H,same at the airport, same at the Metro Centre all these places are private land ( which is what we keep getting thrown at us) but the law clearly states that private land becomes a public place once the public are allowed to use it. Therefore as a Licenced North Tyneside Hackney Carriage should I not be free to ply for hire in all public places within my licenced area “North Tyneside” and if not, Why Not? The operator in question may come back here and say something like “ If anybody would like to challenge the legality of DFDS,BLT and Eastcosts actions feel free” I don’t challenge the legality of your actions what I do challenge is the fairness of this situation in a country where fair competition is encouraged. And I do still have it on the record that these P/H operators said some pretty defamatory things about black hacks in the past with no proof whatsoever. That’s not really fair play either is it? Anyway Who knows I may be totally wrong about the law and fairness and all that stuff,so all comments on this article are most welcome………

Photography: Mr.A.Glass

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There Are 27 Responses So Far. »

Comment by ian shanks on 10 October 2008:

Admin,

i own Newcastle hacks and they can not work either the airport or the central unless they have either a permit or pays money to some organization that controls the station ! so what you on about ?

every hack and private hire as you rightly say can pick up and drop of at the PORT OF THE TYNE as long as they are pre booked you are also right you CAN NOT PLY for hire on that site NOR can you PLY for hire at the station of airport.

so get off your high horse about you wanting to a “free agent hack” because their is places you are restricted from and that’s not down to me or my associate !

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Comment by Toonhack on 10 October 2008:

Why’s Ian Shanks gettin such a cob on? is he woried by all these comments,dos he think every one is blaming him for everthing,………..Actully YES!

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Comment by Captain Cab on 11 October 2008:

So BLT isnt Bacon Lettuce and Tomato then ?

Free and Open access is a bone of contention around the country, be it with HC or PH. The HC trade are selective to who operates at stations, ferry terminals and Airports. Equally as selective as PH.

The facts are, all three locations see the taxi and PH trade as cash cows.

CC

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Comment by Sam Harrington on 12 October 2008:

Well said Captain Cab re:- cash cows.
For some reason the Taxi/PH trade is looked upon as almost being low-lifes, “lets screw em for what we can get”, meanwhile our precious bus companies milk millions out of government and local taxpayers to run a “far superior public transport system”, has anyone else noticed all the empty (subsidised) buses running around in the evenings?… our misguided councillors and Nexus and the PTA (yet more taxpayers money down the drain.. yes we pay their wages) justify their jobs by jumping on the green bandwagon and declaring “what a great public transport system we have”.

FACT, the metro has always ran at a loss, yet they secure over £300 million from public funds !!!! I could go on for ever about perceptions of what is right and what is just, but i dont want to bore the tits off you all. Lets just say i agree with a lot that ian shanks has to say, he has been good enough to come on here and make his views known, the common message seems to be that the (council etc) who are paid by the workers never seem to listen to common sense and come up with crazy ideas to justify their jobs, jobsworth comes to mind.

p.s. for all of those wondering who the ginger muppet is, i will let you draw your own conclusions, or maybe admin can organise a quiz/competition.

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Comment by Ginge on 12 October 2008:

I hear that the amsterdam Boat is leaving the Tyne and sailing from Hull in the near future. Two down one to go 60 odd grand well spent there eh!

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Comment by ian shanks on 12 October 2008:

Mr Harrington

i regularly attend the Nexus meetings which includes a number of operators and licencing officers sometimes police and a few other body’s. i must also say the numbers are dwindling.

but after four years and much hard work by the disliked Mr Fidler and others they have been forced Nexus to have a study done and paid for by Nexus on taxis/PH ! this had to be done by a independent firm called JMB ? as they would not believe the figure presented to them by the taxi trade in the years leading up to this (i guess they were just time waisting as these bodies do)

the results of the study were spectacular for the benefit of our trades and that the public were generally very happy with the service of taxis and that from the figures we came out better value pound for pound better than the METRO system and carried just a few less thousand passengers less than the buss services ! we then went on to say our plus points were we are the only 24 hour door to door transport system ! this being a very safe way to travel.

the study put them very much on the back foot as i then requested after four years what were they going to do for our trades jointly with such things as subsidised fuels and other benefits that other forms of transport are receiving now they had such results in favour of our services. they squirm at this.

the meeting is carried out at the lowest level of staffing who do not have the power to do or chance things. in the last weeks meeting, I asked for higher powered representation with the powers to be who can make changes and give us results now we have shattered the previous figures they had on taxi travel. they suggested this would be unlikely to happen WHY ?

it is my view we are being kept suppressed by not being allowed access to those who could and would have to ability to chance things for our benefit with the information they now have presented under their noise. i also think they want to loose this report in some deep part of their storage cupboard, and hope the trade does not shout about it to much. and rely on the fact that we don’t stand together as this would cost them money

well they will most likely get away with it as the council knows and Nexus are learning is that the trade do not stand together and fight tooth and nail against each other (which is a shame)

so until the laws change (in my view) so the trade can become bigger with even more public carrying capacity than it is presently doing we will be keep in the dark so to speak by these organisations as they don’t know how to manage us or want to assist us.

and while the small and one man operators don’t really care as is does not affect them and they simply just want to get on making the money they require day to day. i want to see the trade be recognized and respected for my children to come into.

So if you get the chance or interested maybe you should get the JMB report from Nexus or maybe Alan Fidler ! who i must say, what ever your thoughts about him he has worked tirelessly for the benefit of our trades to find miss-managed funds within the council of 150k+ and returned to us as a credit he has also gathered valuable evidence to prove both councils and Nexus wrong so many times.

so even if you feel he is like a dose of “thrush” (which he can be) he is the only mouth that represents us jointly and protects us from being trampled on by councils

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Comment by tc on 12 October 2008:

the only one that works tirelessly for both sides of the trade FIDDLER ? what drugs you bloody taking ian ? do you realy expect any p/h or hack driver to believe that ?the decline set in when you & ur partner down the coast formed a trio with alan , im not saying he`s not a nice bloke but wake up man why dont you organise a general open meeting invite every N/tyneside driver p/h & hack and have an open debate and ask the drivers if there better of with you`s representing them over the last 5 years or so!!!!

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Comment by Steve on 12 October 2008:

TO TOUT OR NOT TO TOUT ??? THAT IS THE QUESTION !!! Where do i start ? Ian can you tell me how come down at the DFDS you have yourself a “TAXI MARSHALL” for a PH company who herds the passengers at the gate and then guides them to the long awaiting “RANKED” up queue of mixed PH and berwick plated vehicles{30 to 40 of them at least} without “PRE BOOKING” them first ? correct me if im wrong but i thought every PH company had to recieve a phone call booking that job not straight off the boat and into a car !!! so how come you get away with that ? and then there is the zoning up policy, need i say anymore apart from WHERE THE HELL ARE THE COUNCIL IN ALL THIS AND WHY ARE THEY LETTING THIS GO ON ???

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Comment by admin on 12 October 2008:

“It is the nature of a man as he grows older, a small bridge in time, to protest against change, particularly change for the better.”
“The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system. And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second.” (John Steinbeck, Travels With Charley & Cannery Row)

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Comment by Captain Cab on 12 October 2008:

I think my mate in Darlington would have something to say about the attaining of mis-managed funds. Didnt the chap collect a commission?

The Manchester vs. King court case isnt exactly a secret

http://www.taxi-forum.net/legal/Manchester-City-Council-R-v-King-QBD-1991.zip

and neither is a local authority’s treasury department, nor the freedom of information act.

CC

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Comment by ian shanks on 12 October 2008:

Stephen

without me bleeting on about private land, i will also tell you no one is hereded into cars

The POT has allowed us a booking desk inside the doors where people can and do pre book or they can ask one of the taxi marshalls if they can have a car to which they register on the booking sheets and are show some customer service being directed and aided to the car instructing the driver of where the fare is going and if its a set fare or not.

shall we build this into your tour ???

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Comment by admin on 12 October 2008:

Captain Cab, You’re Link doesn’t work mate.

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Comment by Captain Cab on 13 October 2008:

I could forward the judgement, but the following is basically what the judge said.

“But the level of fees overall must be related to the cost to the council of operating the street trading scheme. ”

CC

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Comment by Captain Cab on 13 October 2008:

Foinett v Clarke (1877), 41 JP 359, 42 Digest 854, 80.
A plying for hire had occured because the vehicle was in view.

Gilbert v McKay [1946] 1 All ER 458, 44 LGR 63, 110 JP 186, 90 Sol Jo 201, 174 LT 196, 62 TLR 226
Where vehicles were parked up adjacent to an office, and people paid within the office and then took passengers. A “Plying For Hire” had occurred.

Sandy vs. Martin [1974] RTR 263
Held, a pub car park was a public place whilst the pub was open, but ceased to be shortly after closing time.

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Comment by yt on 13 October 2008:

” A pub car park was a public place whilst the pub was open”
So does it follow that you can substitute the word “pub” with “Ferry terminal”?

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Comment by toon p/h on 6 November 2008:

A colleage of mine was given a job to pick up at this ferry terminal the other day and travelled there from newcastle to pick up a regular customer of ours going back to byker. On his arrival he was told by a fella in a bright coloured coat at the gatehouse he was’nt allowed in the port to pick up. This job is pre booked there is no flimping or CROSS BORDERING going on thus making mr shanks comments at the top of this forum a load of rubbish. Bully boy tactics? Who is this man in the bright coloured coat port of tyne or blue line? Why can’t we pick up our customers? Do we have to drop off our customers at the gatehouse and then get BLT to take them the rest of the way?

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Comment by bigrobhorsesknob on 8 November 2008:

well said toon p/h I also had a run in with the old man in a crombie coat asking me to move away from the terminal as it was blt’s rank and was not allowed there.I also travelled from newcastle for a pre booked regular customer.As to fares being booked they were not they were just chased and harried to see if they would like a taxi ,no bookings took place.I say that is flimping!!!!

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Comment by rc on 8 November 2008:

who ever uses my nik name gonna torch u

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Comment by Kris on 4 December 2008:

I am a p/h driver and happen to work for east-coast but i don’t rank up at the terminal. As a teenager i worked at the terminal on baggage handling for a few years, when there was a hack rank there. As i remember there were never more than half a dozen hack drivers there at any given time and they never met the demand for the volume of taxis needed to operate efficiently. The customers from DFDS are only interested in getting home as quickly as possible so in the interests of customer service surely the contract awarded to BLT/east coast was a good move. I’m sure the passengers would be content to know that they are getting a better service (due to the increase of cars available) at a cheaper price. Having said that, it is immoral and totally unacceptable that pre-booked cars from other firms have not been allowed to pick up their fare when the customer has chosen to make their own arrangements. I’m also sure that the marshal has no authority beyond the east-coast/BLT drivers and i am surprised that drivers from other firms have taken any notice when told to move on, i wouldn’t.

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Ian Shanks Reply:
December 4th, 2008 at 5:41 pm
@Kris,

this is wrong and I can not and will not defend it !!

do you know which Marshall has done what you have suggested above ??

the customer is paramount and has the freedom of choice when booking a car to choose who they want if not the firms on site.

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John J Reply:
December 4th, 2008 at 7:55 pm
@Ian Shanks, I can tell you Ian Shanks I was dropping off at the Terminal last year and a couple approached and asked if I was available for hire,before I could answer a surly looking guy with long ginger hair led them away by the arm and told them he would get them a proper Taxi,not wanting to make a fuss I let it go rather than making a scene in public. I have heard stories like this since and think it is a bit off to say the least. Personally I don’t think the Boats can add a lot to a Drivers earnings these days so it’s not a huge loss. We still take them back but only one or two if we are lucky. In days gone by you could be busy all day long taking fares back to the boat but like I said before those days are gone.

[Reply]
Ian Shanks Reply:
December 4th, 2008 at 8:08 pm
@John J,

I have no say over the parking requirements at the DFDS but do know that the management of the terminal do not want any cars at the front of the terminal and if you have been down there lately that is apparent by the changes they are making.

The staff that represent BLT will be spoken to about their conduct towards drivers from other organisations. but i must say we have also received issues from HACKS insisting they can pick up and they have also caused embarrassing situations in front of the public

never mind i am not here to create “tit for tat” so i will be speaking to my staff and i am sure Paul will do the same with his.

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John J Reply:
December 4th, 2008 at 10:07 pm
@Ian Shanks, Mr.Shanks thankyou for your reply.I would be the first to say it is not good business to create a scene in front of customers but if a North Tyne Hack is dropping off at the Ferry Terminal he is well within his rights,if he is approached to be hired,to take the fare. He is actually compelled by law as it is an offence to refuse a hiring within the area he is licenced for at any public place.Private land or not. This is not ‘Tit for Tat’but sensible debate.

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John J Reply:
December 4th, 2008 at 7:43 pm
@Kris, I have been a Hack on North Tyneside for over 30 Years mate and always worked the Ferry Terminal and I can tell you ‘at any given time’ there would be upwards of 30 cars there for every boat coming in even when they were 6 hours late we would be there. The streets were crap compared to the boat so anytime one was due we all made for the Terminal. Sometimes a big boat like the Bolero would come in with over 1500 passengers and I admit we were stretched for maybe half an hour or so to clear the passengers away but those days are gone and even before the P/H took over things were not as good and sometimes cars would go and not all of them would get a job. Now that the Norwegian Ferries have stopped there will be even less work. I’m sure as an East Coast driver you know your company better than an outsider looking in and likewise as a Hack that worked the Boat for all those years I think you’ll agree that I know my business a bit better than a Baggage Handler,No offence intended. Also I’m happy to hear that you don’t rank up at the terminal as it is an offence for P/H to ‘rank up’ the letter of the law states that P/H should return to base after each booking and wait to be despatched to their next fare.

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Kris Reply:
December 6th, 2008 at 10:40 am
@John J, I accept what you are saying about the amount of hacks, fair play. On the issue of ‘ranking up’ it is merely a term i have used to describe the method in which the p/h cars queue, not how they conduct their work. Technically, they are all pre-booked before the passengers enter the vehicle as there is a log taken prior to any fares given to drivers. I view this method with slight scepticism for a number of reasons but i’m sure if there was any illegality about this system N.T. council would have to intervene. There is no issue with cars parking anywhere in North Tyneside, as long as they are legally parked, hense the reason we have plotting systems. Although it would be amusing to see 200+ E.coast cars parked in Whitley Bay town centre, especially with the increasingly lengthy time that we have to wait between jobs.

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John J Reply:
December 6th, 2008 at 10:58 am
@Kris, Thanks for the reply Kris. with regard to parking I refer you to the following post: http://www.toomanytaxis.com/2008/06/17/north-tyneside-private-hire-zoning-policy/
And Re: North Tyneside council doing anything about anything is a bit of a joke.As people have said on here before ‘they just don’t listen’ They will write letters to you all week long for ‘Failure to display door decals’ or ‘you were spotted smoking in your car’ or ‘can you bring your insurance policy up to Killingworth’ but try and get them to listen to something about your actual living is nearly impossible! I didn’t realise the Private Hire side of the trade was suffering a slowdown aswell as the Hacks. This is what this site is about ‘TooManyTaxis’ it’s great when your busy but nowadays there are more quiet times than ever and all those cars still expect work but have to take their turn. I spoke to a guy last night from whitley lodge,an engineer on £50,000 a year and he’s struggling. When those people are struggling it comes right back down to us and we start to suffer.If numbers of Taxis had not increased so much over the last 10 years we would just about weather it. I did 6 jobs last night on the street from 9pm til 1.30am because at any one time I had to queue behind 20 or 30 cars which 10 years ago were not there.It can only get worse!

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Kris Reply:
December 6th, 2008 at 12:21 pm
@John J, Thanks for the link, it certainly is an interesting article. I get what you mean about the council, a bunch of paper pushers in the majority. There are far too mays licences being issued. The amount of hack plates issues should remain capped and the issuing of p/h plates should also be limited, but it’s all about generating revenue for our beloved council. It will be interesting to see how things pan out with the berwick bandit situation, i know of a few drivers who have admitted that they could not have passed the N.T. locality test and have therefore gone to the border for their easy ticket into the trade. I’m possitive that a high percentage of these drivers would not or could not have entered the hire and reward trade if they had to go to our local council. We, both p/h and HC drivers, have suffered because of the influx of these drivers and if a black doblo pulls up outside a pub full of punters they don’t take any notice of whether the plate is green or white. So there’s another stolen job. Get them off the streets and there’s a start. Anyway, best of luck mate and i’m out in a couple of hours time for my 14hr Sat shift coz it’s the only time i make any real money. See how many Berwick flimpers we see tonight…

[Reply]

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DFDS Revisited: A Modern Saga

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